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Help on properly informed response

 
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Vinylium
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Help on properly informed response Reply with quote

This is what someone asked on another forum I'm on and I want to give a better educated response so yeah... any help? They are pointing out the "contradictions" in the bible.

Quote:
Let me preface this and make this very clear! I am in NO way insulting Christian beliefs, but it was brought to my attention on another thread, that the bible is without error, since it is the Direct word of God. I present the following information for discussion, not for insults or flaming or bashing. If this happens, I will, as author of the thread, ask that it be deleted.

Be nice or face my wrath. Very Happy

It is a central dogma of all fundamental Christians that the Bible is without error. They teach this conclusion by "reasoning" that god cannot be the author of false meaning and he cannot lie. Is this true? If written by a perfect being, then it must not contradict itself, as a collection of books written by different men at different times over many centuries would be expected to contradict each other.

With this in mind, let us have a look at the Bible on several subjects.





ON THE SABBATH DAY
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." -- Exodus 20:8

"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." -- Romans 14:5




ON THE PERMANENCY OF THE EARTH
"... the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecclesiastes 1:4

"... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." -- 2Peter 3:10




ON SEEING GOD
"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18




ON HUMAN SACRIFICE
"... Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God..." -- Leviticus 18:21

[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] "... If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering" (Judges 11:30-31).

[The terms were acceptable to god -- remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future -- so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] -- Judges 11:29-34




ON THE POWER OF GOD
"... with God all things are possible." -- Matthew 19:26

"...The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." -- Judges 1:19




ON DEALING WITH PERSONAL INJURY
"...thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. " -- Exodus 21:23-25

"...ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:39




ON CIRCUMCISION
"This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." -- Genesis 17:10

"...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." -- Galatians 5:2




ON INCEST
"Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother..." -- Deuteronomy 27:22

"And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter...it is a wicked thing...." -- Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god's reaction to Abraham, who married his sister -- his father's daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

"And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife...I bless her, and give thee a son also of her..." -- Genesis 17:15-16




ON TRUSTING GOD
"A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD..." -- Proverbs 12:2

Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." -- Job 2:3




ON THE HOLY LIFE-STYLE
"Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart..." -- Ecclesiastes 9:7

"...they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not..." -- 1 Corinthians 7:30




ON PUNISHING CRIME
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20

"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5




ON TEMPTATION
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13

"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1




ON FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26




ON RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD
"...he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. " -- Job 7:9

"...the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth...." -- John 5:28-29




ON THE END OF THE WORLD
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. " -- Matthew 16:28

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. " -- Luke 21:32-33

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light." -- Romans 13:11-12

"Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." -- James 5:8

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." -- 1 John 2:18

"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." -- 1 Peter 4:7

These words were written between 1800 and 1900 years ago and were meant to warn and prepare the first Christians for the immediate end of the world. Some words are those supposedly straight out of the mouth of the "Son of God." The world did not end 1800 or 1900 years ago. All that generation passed away without any of the things foretold coming to pass. No amount of prayer brought it about; nor ever so much patience and belief and sober living. The world went on, as usual. The world, by surviving, makes the above passages contradictions.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to take a whole lot of time on this right now but the majority of these passages can be understood without contracdicting each other just by reading the immediate context of them. "Context is king", as a professor of mine used to say. For example, Ecclesiates basically rants and raves about the meaninglessness of life then at the end says; without God there is no meaning. So, you can get a lot of junk from Ecclesiates if you pick and choose one verse or phrase. Job also has a discussion type of format, at the end God basically says they are all full of poo. So, look up the passages and I'm thinking you can figure out most of it on your own.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

another issue to keep in mind: most of those verses seem to be from the KJV, which is not the most accurate version. it was a great effort in its day, and stands as such today, but there have been many new discoveries that have led to more accurate translations. an example of what i am talking about would be the quoted verse Gen 22:1, which is quoted in the KJV as "God did tempt Abraham." however, the NIV, which is a more literal translation based off more accurate manuscripts, says this: "some time later God tested abraham...." there is a difference between tempting and testing. God most certainl is free to test His people.

that's just one example of the importance of good translations. dont take any one translation as THE translation...use a variety.

also, i'd just like to reiterate what bibleman pointed out which is that it's crucial to have a thorough understanding of the individual books of the bible. it's important to remember also that the Bible records the words and deeds of evil men as well as satan himself. and if these passages are pulled from their context, there could be disastrous effects.

why dont we try looking at each set of scriptures, investigate each scripture and see how they really compare. i'll start with the first set...

the first scripture is from the first set of stone tablets given to the israelites. these tablets contained the law. this is the fourth of the ten commandments. and it reads pretty much as quoted above.

let's look at the verse in romans a little closer:
if we read back a few verses, we see paul talking about faith. he says some people have stronger faith than others. this makes sense. based on the faith we have, we act in certain ways. paul lists some examples that were relevant to his audience: eating meat vs. vegetables and considering one day more sacred than another. then he sums it up with this statement: "He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none ofus dies to himself alone." the question here is this: is paul talking specifically about the Sabbath? the answer is no. and most likely, when he talked about a "day" he was talking about the different jewish festivals.

so from this little investigation, we can see that these two scriptures cant contradict each other because they are not even directly related to each other.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you guys are so smart....you must be interns!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what might be even better is to get that person who posted all those "contradictions" to read the context of those passages. If they are willing to do that then it should lead to some really good conversation.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that would be good
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Vinylium
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shall i invite them over here?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sure, why not?
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